@SkyJayTheFirst
So I generally tell people to try putting CoM in front of CoL but not far apart, enough to stall but not enough to flip.
All in all, CoM is just a rough idea because the exact position is depend on many other factor, you just need to test it out until you find what work best for that particular plane.
For example, Pixy has many parts at the rear (there also high drag airbrake) so drag at the rear will be huge too, that's what keep the plane stable, to help it to stall easily, CoM will have to be in the rear.
In other word, CoL in the builder is true for normal flight but at high aoa it's not the same anymore.
And for my SU-57, I made it with some stability in mind, like irl SU-27 that can do Cobra without tvc, that's mean it's unstable enough to do cobra but stable enough to recover.
Assuming I wanted to keep the center of mass and lift in the same spot with the Star Raven, how would I go about tuning the AoA characteristics, if inserting angle-of-attack controls isn't foolproof?
I guess you'll have to increase drag at the rear (maybe by xml), it's not advisable because it's just like moving CoL backward but without moving blue circle in editor.
But again, technically it is just moving CoL with extra step so the final answer is NO.
@TheIndianGaruda
I guess it just stall out of control because AG1 is my "fun switch".
It'll ignore everything that keep the plane fly normal.
If you use my code, you'll have to accept the "fun part" lol.
@SkyJayTheFirst
In a way, yes.
I'd rewrite that to just "the plane will go as long as the command will go, it'll stop if there is no command."
For the fix, I've already answered it in F-44-B1-Star-Raven but I'll just summarize it.
Make CoM go forward or CoL go backward will eliminate the instability, bigger elevators will help a lot too.
In my opinion, plane this size should have bigger elevators.
Maybe really big V-tail?
idk, it's you to decide.
@SkyJayTheFirst
I'm not quite sure if your "flipping" is difference from my "flipping", just describe exactly how you get my both plane to "jerking around violently at high angle of attacks".
I think we are missing something here.
And for how I reproduce the flip it your plane, I get speed up to about 700-800 km/h IAS and then activate AG1 (so it'll flip easier) and pitch up for a very short time, the plane will flip and continue flipping even though I'm not touching the control and will stop when the nose is pointing backward (which is it's balance point) like the backward dart analogy I described earlier.
If you play around model planes so much like me you'll "feel" the point of no return (while pitching) in the scenario I said.
Control inversion problem is gone.
Now I think you fully understand about () and the flow of math in code.
Good job.
Problem with flipping at high speed high aoa is still there unfortunately, hope you'll fix it soon.
And about main landing gear position, it usually a bit behind CoM on most if not all plane, it'll help in takeoff and landing a lot.
@SkyJayTheFirst
Angle of slip is angle of attack side way, I'm not sure what else you do with angle of slip beside determining whether the plane is flying backward or not.
@Zaineman
I've tried that but it'll work with real time reflection only which my pc cannot afford.
What you see here is just fake reflection the graphic engine gave you unfortunately.
@SkyJayTheFirst
(abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1) will output 1 if flying normally and output -1 if flying backward.
But normally, in the code, if there is no () the code will do the * and / first and do + and - later.
So 3 + 2 * 2 will be 7 instead of 10 because 2*2 first then add to 3 later.
But if you use () like (3 + 2) * 2 to control the flow, it'll output 10.
Same goes for your code, the (abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1) is lost somewhere so it does not invert the entire code.
If not counting (abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1), all of the code was written for forward flight only, the code will have negative effect when fly backward.
And angle of attack need to be extensively tuned, so it'll not be a smooth ride at first but there is always a way.
For my code I use angle of attack but ignore it sometimes.
I'm impressed by this build, you using a lot of building technique and manage to pull them all together!
Nice job.
Also, I've noticed that there are missiles in what I assume is air intake.
Hope those missiles didn't come loose.
Fly better, landing gear and autoaim problems are gone.
But problems I've pointed out previously still existed but will not occur unless I'm really looking for it which I guess is the best that simple code can offer.
So I've dig deeper and found some serious flaws.
- Control inversion for flying backward is bugged, there are "(abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1)" but it need to be final multiplier to work, for now it just multiply to the number next to it. "()" play a big part in all of programming code.
- I tried increased elevators size and the flip is pretty much gone, the plane have more controlling power and gain some stability so it'll not flip.
I guess your code need new parameter to play with, "AngleOfAttack".
@SkyJayTheFirst
If that's the case, it's alright.
But because there are so many things that affect performance, CoM and CoL don't tell the whole story, just a rough idea.
@Zaineman
Thanks.
Not gonna lie, I have to Google that "Mad note" lol, never heard of that.
And I just want to imitate artificial horizon with that shiny ball but well...
I guess it's ir cam now lol.
@SkyJayTheFirst
I guess Morgan's pitching power is not enough to flip it at high speed.
Not to mention CoM shift when landing gear is retracted.
I'd say, go with CoM and CoL that suit the need, not just blindly copy from another plane.
@SkyJayTheFirst
I guess you'll need to drill more holes into the body lol.
And for the instability, it happen regardless of setting, when aoa is high enough and speed is high enough but yes, it do happen easier with AG1 on.
Just try grabbing a dart by the tip and try to balance it with it's tail into the wind, you can keep it straight but when the angle is too much the dart will quickly flip.
That's exactly what happen to the plane.
The plane CoM and CoL is like a dart flying backward.
Landing with plane that big is impressive enough, who cares about broken landing gear lol.
Also, I think start the pull up near sea level will put you lower after the flip and might save you from damaged plane.
@SkyJayTheFirst @NMEE
This'd need a complete overhaul for me.
I've noticed that there are so many parts with calculateDrag = true, if those are false it'll improve performance by a lot.
Just let drag concentrate on some few parts like wings will improve performance as well.
@SkyJayTheFirst
Just to be clear, I'm not the one who invented the original targeting code by any mean but I just reversed engineered it to be more accurate.
After a quick look I've noticed that the code is working fine for gun with muzzle velocity of 1200m/s but your guns have muzzle velocity of 800m/s so no wonder it miss but not miss by a lot.
Just change all "1200" in the code to "800" or change muzzle velocity to 1200.
Other things I've noticed it CoM and CoL position makes this jet unstable, yes it fly nice but high aoa at high speed will flip the plane violently like trying to throw a dart tail first, this could be fixed by powerful control surfaces. (relying on tvc too much is not advisable)
And please please please... 🙏🙏🙏
make landing gears bigger, I got tail-strike on takeoff and belly landing while gears are deployed.
@Zaineman
Programming is just as easy as any other languages, you just don't know it yet lol.
Try putting Time or really high number in the input via XML so the radar will spin continuously from the start.
And yeah, I'll tag you if I see the build.
@AVERAGEAVIATIONENJOYER
This is pretty smooth actually.
I guess there are no problems with the code but PID need to be tuned a bit, D in PID is crucial because it'll smooth out the control.
The problem is "- 0.45* Throttle" at the end of tvc code, this is to counter the pitch up movement from thrust line below CoM but it's wrong way, try " + 0.45*Throttle" instead.
I saw someone using gauge for spinning radar, it's interesting so I think you might want to look into it.
I don't have link but I have some idea how it work.
They removed trim, removed gauge face, removed gauge back so all that left is just needle and they put really high number (such as "Time" value in FT) as input so the needle spin continuously.
Please don't mind this comment, xNotDumb requested the T in difference post so I just want to keep it in the same post to not miss out.
+1@SkyJayTheFirst
+1np!
Don't steal other people's build.
@TheIndianGaruda
Because it have some stability.
But again, at low speed, any plane will flip and yaw and do weird things.
@SkyJayTheFirst
So I generally tell people to try putting CoM in front of CoL but not far apart, enough to stall but not enough to flip.
All in all, CoM is just a rough idea because the exact position is depend on many other factor, you just need to test it out until you find what work best for that particular plane.
For example, Pixy has many parts at the rear (there also high drag airbrake) so drag at the rear will be huge too, that's what keep the plane stable, to help it to stall easily, CoM will have to be in the rear.
In other word, CoL in the builder is true for normal flight but at high aoa it's not the same anymore.
And for my SU-57, I made it with some stability in mind, like irl SU-27 that can do Cobra without tvc, that's mean it's unstable enough to do cobra but stable enough to recover.
I guess you'll have to increase drag at the rear (maybe by xml), it's not advisable because it's just like moving CoL backward but without moving blue circle in editor.
+1But again, technically it is just moving CoL with extra step so the final answer is NO.
@TheIndianGaruda
+2I guess it just stall out of control because AG1 is my "fun switch".
It'll ignore everything that keep the plane fly normal.
If you use my code, you'll have to accept the "fun part" lol.
@xNotDumb
I don't mind that, your question is short so I give short answer lol.
I'll tag you when I'm done.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1Also, angle of attack is use to prevent stall so I guess it could work but it'll not completely eliminate the problem.
Here is how angle of attack is use, it just make unstable plane fly, and yes...PSM plane is unstable but not to a degree of a dart flying backward.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1In a way, yes.
I'd rewrite that to just "the plane will go as long as the command will go, it'll stop if there is no command."
For the fix, I've already answered it in F-44-B1-Star-Raven but I'll just summarize it.
Make CoM go forward or CoL go backward will eliminate the instability, bigger elevators will help a lot too.
In my opinion, plane this size should have bigger elevators.
Maybe really big V-tail?
idk, it's you to decide.
@Khanhlam
Not exactly the same aircraft.
@Zaineman
How about 0 mass missiles and 0 mass pylon?
But if 0 mass mess with the physic, use very very low mass.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1I'm not quite sure if your "flipping" is difference from my "flipping", just describe exactly how you get my both plane to "jerking around violently at high angle of attacks".
I think we are missing something here.
And for how I reproduce the flip it your plane, I get speed up to about 700-800 km/h IAS and then activate AG1 (so it'll flip easier) and pitch up for a very short time, the plane will flip and continue flipping even though I'm not touching the control and will stop when the nose is pointing backward (which is it's balance point) like the backward dart analogy I described earlier.
If you play around model planes so much like me you'll "feel" the point of no return (while pitching) in the scenario I said.
@xNotDumb
In progress.
@xNotDumb
No.
@xNotDumb
No.
Control inversion problem is gone.
+1Now I think you fully understand about () and the flow of math in code.
Good job.
Problem with flipping at high speed high aoa is still there unfortunately, hope you'll fix it soon.
And about main landing gear position, it usually a bit behind CoM on most if not all plane, it'll help in takeoff and landing a lot.
@jayyyy
Yes.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1Angle of slip is angle of attack side way, I'm not sure what else you do with angle of slip beside determining whether the plane is flying backward or not.
@Zaineman
I think I know what you are saying.
I guess missiles will shift your center of mass so there is not much choice of where to place them.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1Nice.
I'll test it when it come out.
Edit : You use AngleOfAttack in that upcoming version? That's quick.
@Zaineman
lol.
Guess I'm looking at it differently.
There is plenty of room under the wings though.
@Zaineman
I've tried that but it'll work with real time reflection only which my pc cannot afford.
What you see here is just fake reflection the graphic engine gave you unfortunately.
@Zaineman
lol
Sounds safe enough to me.
@JackRaiden
I use VTOL engine for afterburner.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1Ok.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1(abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1) will output 1 if flying normally and output -1 if flying backward.
But normally, in the code, if there is no () the code will do the * and / first and do + and - later.
So 3 + 2 * 2 will be 7 instead of 10 because 2*2 first then add to 3 later.
But if you use () like (3 + 2) * 2 to control the flow, it'll output 10.
Same goes for your code, the (abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1) is lost somewhere so it does not invert the entire code.
If not counting (abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1), all of the code was written for forward flight only, the code will have negative effect when fly backward.
And angle of attack need to be extensively tuned, so it'll not be a smooth ride at first but there is always a way.
For my code I use angle of attack but ignore it sometimes.
I'm impressed by this build, you using a lot of building technique and manage to pull them all together!
Nice job.
Also, I've noticed that there are missiles in what I assume is air intake.
Hope those missiles didn't come loose.
Fly better, landing gear and autoaim problems are gone.
But problems I've pointed out previously still existed but will not occur unless I'm really looking for it which I guess is the best that simple code can offer.
So I've dig deeper and found some serious flaws.
- Control inversion for flying backward is bugged, there are "(abs(AngleOfSlip) > 45 ? -1 : 1)" but it need to be final multiplier to work, for now it just multiply to the number next to it. "()" play a big part in all of programming code.
- I tried increased elevators size and the flip is pretty much gone, the plane have more controlling power and gain some stability so it'll not flip.
I guess your code need new parameter to play with, "AngleOfAttack".
+1@SkyJayTheFirst
+1If that's the case, it's alright.
But because there are so many things that affect performance, CoM and CoL don't tell the whole story, just a rough idea.
@Zaineman
Thanks.
Not gonna lie, I have to Google that "Mad note" lol, never heard of that.
And I just want to imitate artificial horizon with that shiny ball but well...
I guess it's ir cam now lol.
Such a big change in style and building technique.
Nice.
@Echostar
+1Do this
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1I guess Morgan's pitching power is not enough to flip it at high speed.
Not to mention CoM shift when landing gear is retracted.
I'd say, go with CoM and CoL that suit the need, not just blindly copy from another plane.
@afeefuiu
Thanks.
@Khanhlam
ok.
@SkyJayTheFirst
I guess you'll need to drill more holes into the body lol.
And for the instability, it happen regardless of setting, when aoa is high enough and speed is high enough but yes, it do happen easier with AG1 on.
Just try grabbing a dart by the tip and try to balance it with it's tail into the wind, you can keep it straight but when the angle is too much the dart will quickly flip.
That's exactly what happen to the plane.
+1The plane CoM and CoL is like a dart flying backward.
Landing with plane that big is impressive enough, who cares about broken landing gear lol.
+2Also, I think start the pull up near sea level will put you lower after the flip and might save you from damaged plane.
@SkyJayTheFirst @NMEE
+2This'd need a complete overhaul for me.
I've noticed that there are so many parts with calculateDrag = true, if those are false it'll improve performance by a lot.
Just let drag concentrate on some few parts like wings will improve performance as well.
@Zaineman
Anytime!
@Zaineman
+1Skyjay remind me of myself years ago, let's see how far he can go.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1Just to be clear, I'm not the one who invented the original targeting code by any mean but I just reversed engineered it to be more accurate.
After a quick look I've noticed that the code is working fine for gun with muzzle velocity of 1200m/s but your guns have muzzle velocity of 800m/s so no wonder it miss but not miss by a lot.
Just change all "1200" in the code to "800" or change muzzle velocity to 1200.
Other things I've noticed it CoM and CoL position makes this jet unstable, yes it fly nice but high aoa at high speed will flip the plane violently like trying to throw a dart tail first, this could be fixed by powerful control surfaces. (relying on tvc too much is not advisable)
And please please please... 🙏🙏🙏
make landing gears bigger, I got tail-strike on takeoff and belly landing while gears are deployed.
@XWorks
No.
Without tvc, I might as well not flying at all.
Why'd you cut the nose off a perfectly fine Raptor?
Why you steal my plane?
@Captainjeffthepilot00
I'll remake not just cockpit if I'm going to remaster it at all.
@Zaineman
Programming is just as easy as any other languages, you just don't know it yet lol.
Try putting Time or really high number in the input via XML so the radar will spin continuously from the start.
And yeah, I'll tag you if I see the build.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1Nice.
I'll be waiting.
You nailed feature after feature and I think eventually you'll be better than me.
@AVERAGEAVIATIONENJOYER
+1This is pretty smooth actually.
I guess there are no problems with the code but PID need to be tuned a bit, D in PID is crucial because it'll smooth out the control.
The problem is "- 0.45* Throttle" at the end of tvc code, this is to counter the pitch up movement from thrust line below CoM but it's wrong way, try " + 0.45*Throttle" instead.
I saw someone using gauge for spinning radar, it's interesting so I think you might want to look into it.
+1I don't have link but I have some idea how it work.
They removed trim, removed gauge face, removed gauge back so all that left is just needle and they put really high number (such as "Time" value in FT) as input so the needle spin continuously.
@SkyJayTheFirst
+1Yes.
More like only stall when absolutely no way to prevent it.
A good system will do something Randy "Laz" Gordon said.