Paternian participation in the Battle of Australia was not particularly well-publicized, simply due to the fact that the Paternian Armed Forces did not constitute a significant portion of the Coalition order of battle. We only deployed four fighter squadrons (2 F-5, 1 F-104, 1 F-4) and a single Forward Task Force comprising of 10 scout submarines, 10 frigates, 5 destroyers, two light cruisers, and the PRN Oriskany (CVR-34). Compared to the hundred or so fighter, bomber, and strike squadrons in addition to numerous, larger task forces, our presence was quite small.
The perception of the Sentian Republic is that of a crazy nation. Your refusal to withdraw from Korea, against our advice given the situation, made it appear that you wanted war, that you were willing to needlessly sacrifice troops for a scrap of land. Korea was of little value and would have been certainly lost. He had all the significant advantages on any side; numbers, logistics, and positioning. For your forces in Australia to resupply the Korea garrison, they would have had to traverse 2,000 miles of ocean, of which a third of that would have heavy Chinese naval presence and be within range of land-based strike aircraft. If he wanted to resupply his attacking forces, they could go to depots 20 miles north of the Tumen and Yalu River. Forces attacking from the sea would have to be resupplied by sea, but aside from the occasional submarine, the Chinese Navy would have naval supremacy in the Sea of Japan and the Yellow Sea.
And we socialists treat the people well. That's the point of a socialist government.
Of course, we didn't completely dismantle the government framework. That's called stupidity.
@PyrusEnderhunter Actually, most Paternians were former Americans and Mexicans.
75% of the nation was Catholic. Last time I checked, Sentians aren't religious at all.
There were only 250,000 in Paternia, of which 75,000 were listed as "suspicious aliens" due to their association with the Sentian Federation. Most were released, leaving 4,500 imprisoned Sentians for a direct or indirect participation in sabotage acts.
19 is a small number. We know from captured documents in Congo that there were 500.
And remember, they aren't doing forced labor. They're under Paternian penal code, which expressedly forbids using those incarcerated for forced work.
While anti-Sentian sentiment is high, the Paternain National Gendarme have taken steps to ensure that they are not harmed. The police vehicles near many homes are less for monitoring them and more for deterring those who wish to commit crimes against them.
@PyrusEnderhunter Well, what's done is done. Sympathy for your nation is at an all-time low. Your state in Korea is the only asset you have. And I don't even know how long that's going to last.
You see, within any nation, there is a minority who is fiercely loyal, a minority which is fiercely resistant, and a majority of those who just want to get along with their lives and don't really care as long as there is stability.
As long as we can appease the majority through the restoration of order and stability, any sort of insurgency will be compromised from the beginning. We deny them any legitimacy through our actions. Our mission is to defend civilians at all costs, even if it means not killing every insurgent. Deprived of support, the insurgent will have to surrender. And those who surrender are well-treated, to encourage others to surrender when pressured by the Paternian Armed Forces.
@PyrusEnderhunter Now Hitler didn't use concentration camps. He used extermination camps.
Big difference. Concentration camps, or officially "Interment Camps", are designed to hold a large population of prisoners. Extermination camps, as used by Hitler, were designed to kill off as many undesirables as possible.
@PyrusEnderhunter They did. However, this time, we have charges against them, and we're giving each one a trial.
By your declaration that there are hundreds of sleeper agents who are ethnic Sentians, we must do what we did. Information Control have evidence that this assertion is true. We have the evidence that you did send sleeper agents, and if you claim that this is against international law, let me tell you that in virtually every nation, espionage against the state is a crime of the highest degree, worthy of the toughest punishments. It is the only crime in Paternia, that warrants a life sentence without rehabilitation and without any chance of parole.
Not all persons of Sentian origin are imprisoned though. Those who have lived in Paternia for many years and have essentially been naturalized, or those born and raised in Paternia who have culturally assimilated into Paternian culture are left alone. However, those who are recent arrivals or still maintain connections with the Sentian Federation are arrested for association with a hostile force.
Interesting. However, we prefer to use the FN MAG (aka M240) for use as a vehicle machine gun due to the way you can change the barrel, as well as its reliability.
@PyrusEnderhunter Your weapons were very advanced. So advanced that having them work half the time was a good thing.
Given the performance of Sentian troops in the Australia and Antarctica campaign compared to the performance of Chinese troops in Nepal, their training does have parity with the Chinese Army.
As for ships, a battleship is already an obsolete design. While useful in niche scenarios, they are very much secondary vessels, serving as floating AA citadels to defend carriers. The lack of naval aviation beyond liaision and spotting roles did hamper your ability to protect battleships from air attack.
In particular, Paternian A-4 Skyhawks and A-6 Intruders on very low-altitude strikes proved deadly against Sentian cruisers. Flying under the radar with toss-bombing tactics with unguided 1,00lb SAP bombs on the A-4s with their computer bombsights and skip-bombing tactics with 454kg HEAT bombs on the A-6s, the A-4s and A-6s were able to avoid the heavy losses taken by other air forces when attacking your ships, who employed standard medium-high altitude strikes.
Also using condensed U shells could qualify as nuclear warfare due to the radioactivity, and locust shells could qualify as entomological warfare, a subtype of biological warfare. Due to the legal grey area of employing uninfected locusts against crops, I would not condone such an activity.
@PyrusEnderhunter Don't treat alliances like personal friendships. Treat them as alliances. They are fluid and dynamic. Your allies now may not be your allies later, although alliances based on mutual benefit than those of convenience are most likely to last longest.
A key is to make yourself as useful as you can be to the ones you want to be friends with. MemeKing sells me oil and raw materials while we sell him F-104 Starfighters and M16 assault rifles.
Your position in Korea would have been disadvantageous in a conflict between China and the ISFOS. Your forces and his forces have parity in equipment, training, and morale, yet he has superior positioning and logistics. @PyrusEnderhunter
@PyrusEnderhunter Attacks against character do nothing but distract the conversation.
But yes, I am ruthless in achieving my goals. This I do not hide.
Your co-leader would have certainly understood if you withdrew from Korea. I do not seek territories that are difficult to defend. I prefer to sacrifice territory which is difficult to defend than try and hold it and weaken my defensive capabilities further.
@PyrusEnderhunter Also, we are masters at psychological warfare. It's how we can occupy foreign territories like Nepal so effectively. We are able to make them love us. With our army, comes our hospitals, infrastructure, schools, and law enforcement. Usually we leave the local governments in place, removing leaders who oppose us but otherwise leaving the structure intact. In few cases do we dismantle the former bureaucracy and institute our own.
@PyrusEnderhunter I knew that you didn't like China. Matter of fact, both of you hated each other. But you were also very powerful, and could potentially pose a threat to Paternian influence.
In addition, your refusal to completely abandon Korea, which would certainly defuse tensions and put you in a far more defensible position told me that your abilities as a commander and diplomat are limited.
In contrast, MemeKing, and PINK are much more powerful due to their knowledge of diplomacy and military command. They know how to counter your simplistic rushes and biological weapons. It's stupidly simple.
@PyrusEnderhunter 1) The Paternian Medical Service has no reported casualties from your jamming equipment.
2) You supported China. The Paternian Republic has conflicting interests with China. As his primary source of international support, it was imperative to weaken his influence, which can be accomplished by your destruction. And the NSA was a willing participant.
3) While the majority of operations were not led by Paternians, we provided the necessary logistical, reconnaissance, and technical support for the operations to succeed. Things such as the PRN Albacore (SSN-103) and F-4 Phantom II sorties form New Zealand were small but significant. Your operations to defend and retake Australia would have been far more successful if it wasn't for the small but important contribution by the Paternian Armed Forces. What they could not provide, we did.
4) I have defended your arse many times, you know. When you got absolutely pummeled and driven from the planet in that other season, I was literally the thin red line between you and complete annihilation. Yes, it was a scummy move to get rid of you, but a necessary one from our perspective.
@PyrusEnderhunter You realize that if you are invaded, Paternia and Awwam can provide military assistance.
But if either Paternia or Awwam is invaded, you can't provide much, if any, military assistance. Therefore, someone could lure either Paternia or Awwam into conflict by invading you, knowing that you can't stand up to a full-blown invasion but that by the treaty we will have to help you.
@PyrusEnderhunter That population is quite large, given the world population is 3 billion at this time. The Paternian population is 220 million, and the Chinese population is 700 million, both nations with much greater area than your nation.
So what makes you think you can provide the level of comfort we can provide our 220 million people with only a small fraction of the resources I have while maintaining an oversized military?
@PyrusEnderhunter 1) Gabon and Congo have plenty of rainforests. 2) Most of Congo itself is part of the Congo River Basin, which has large tropical rainforests. 3) I don't consider rainforests "barren wastelands."
I suggest knowing your geography before you attempt anything.
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in a final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, and the hopes of its children."
We can afford to spend millions of dollars on a military because all those who hunger and ask for food are fed. Those who are cold and ask for clothes are clothed.
You cannot provide that. I want to know how many people live in your African territories.
@PyrusEnderhunter It takes more than oil to maintain a ship, which Congo and Gabon has plenty.
You need the food to feed the thousands of men and women which man and maintain these floating citadels of death. You need large shipyards to service them. You need thousands of tons of steel to maintain a warship of that size.
As of now, you have none at the level necessary to do so. You do have extensive resources in Congo, but I doubt they will be enough to build a navy that can challenge the might of the Paternian Navy.
@PyrusEnderhunter You realize how impractical a sound cannon is, right?
Also, everyone's calling you OP. Your nation is basically the Korean Peninsula, the DR of Congo, and Gabon. You don't have the resources to maintain a hundred capital ships.
@PyrusEnderhunter Not really.
Paternian participation in the Battle of Australia was not particularly well-publicized, simply due to the fact that the Paternian Armed Forces did not constitute a significant portion of the Coalition order of battle. We only deployed four fighter squadrons (2 F-5, 1 F-104, 1 F-4) and a single Forward Task Force comprising of 10 scout submarines, 10 frigates, 5 destroyers, two light cruisers, and the PRN Oriskany (CVR-34). Compared to the hundred or so fighter, bomber, and strike squadrons in addition to numerous, larger task forces, our presence was quite small.
The perception of the Sentian Republic is that of a crazy nation. Your refusal to withdraw from Korea, against our advice given the situation, made it appear that you wanted war, that you were willing to needlessly sacrifice troops for a scrap of land. Korea was of little value and would have been certainly lost. He had all the significant advantages on any side; numbers, logistics, and positioning. For your forces in Australia to resupply the Korea garrison, they would have had to traverse 2,000 miles of ocean, of which a third of that would have heavy Chinese naval presence and be within range of land-based strike aircraft. If he wanted to resupply his attacking forces, they could go to depots 20 miles north of the Tumen and Yalu River. Forces attacking from the sea would have to be resupplied by sea, but aside from the occasional submarine, the Chinese Navy would have naval supremacy in the Sea of Japan and the Yellow Sea.
And we socialists treat the people well. That's the point of a socialist government.
Of course, we didn't completely dismantle the government framework. That's called stupidity.
Get onto Discord and talk this over.
@PyrusEnderhunter No. "Suspicious alien" in legal speak simply refers to individuals from a foreign nation whose activities are suspicious.
@PyrusEnderhunter Actually, most Paternians were former Americans and Mexicans.
75% of the nation was Catholic. Last time I checked, Sentians aren't religious at all.
There were only 250,000 in Paternia, of which 75,000 were listed as "suspicious aliens" due to their association with the Sentian Federation. Most were released, leaving 4,500 imprisoned Sentians for a direct or indirect participation in sabotage acts.
19 is a small number. We know from captured documents in Congo that there were 500.
And remember, they aren't doing forced labor. They're under Paternian penal code, which expressedly forbids using those incarcerated for forced work.
While anti-Sentian sentiment is high, the Paternain National Gendarme have taken steps to ensure that they are not harmed. The police vehicles near many homes are less for monitoring them and more for deterring those who wish to commit crimes against them.
@PyrusEnderhunter Well, what's done is done. Sympathy for your nation is at an all-time low. Your state in Korea is the only asset you have. And I don't even know how long that's going to last.
@PyrusEnderhunter I do not think it is fair to compare socialists to fascists. Espeically the socialists who defeated the fascists that was the SNAS.
@PyrusEnderhunter We won't have to.
You see, within any nation, there is a minority who is fiercely loyal, a minority which is fiercely resistant, and a majority of those who just want to get along with their lives and don't really care as long as there is stability.
As long as we can appease the majority through the restoration of order and stability, any sort of insurgency will be compromised from the beginning. We deny them any legitimacy through our actions. Our mission is to defend civilians at all costs, even if it means not killing every insurgent. Deprived of support, the insurgent will have to surrender. And those who surrender are well-treated, to encourage others to surrender when pressured by the Paternian Armed Forces.
Clinton is a smart lady.
I like the welded, wide-hatch better. @RAF1
I will certainly use your turret, if you let me. But I may make a new hull. @RAF1
A bit narrow in my opinion, but a good model. Maybe it's because I'm used to the (W) suspension.
You know what? I'm going to make that. M4A3(76)W HVSS/M4A3E8.
It was also tall because it originally used a radial engine, and the tall hull allowed the use of different engines.
@PyrusEnderhunter Now Hitler didn't use concentration camps. He used extermination camps.
Big difference. Concentration camps, or officially "Interment Camps", are designed to hold a large population of prisoners. Extermination camps, as used by Hitler, were designed to kill off as many undesirables as possible.
@PyrusEnderhunter They did. However, this time, we have charges against them, and we're giving each one a trial.
By your declaration that there are hundreds of sleeper agents who are ethnic Sentians, we must do what we did. Information Control have evidence that this assertion is true. We have the evidence that you did send sleeper agents, and if you claim that this is against international law, let me tell you that in virtually every nation, espionage against the state is a crime of the highest degree, worthy of the toughest punishments. It is the only crime in Paternia, that warrants a life sentence without rehabilitation and without any chance of parole.
Not all persons of Sentian origin are imprisoned though. Those who have lived in Paternia for many years and have essentially been naturalized, or those born and raised in Paternia who have culturally assimilated into Paternian culture are left alone. However, those who are recent arrivals or still maintain connections with the Sentian Federation are arrested for association with a hostile force.
@PyrusEnderhunter You're not helping your cause.
We have refrained from cruelty. But if we need cruelty, you can be assured that we will do so in excess.
Time for concentration camps!
@PyrusEnderhunter I won't give you the time to get big.
Imma go invade African territories. Seize it.
Your Navy have fired upon Paternian warships in international waters off the coast of Gabon.
Interesting. However, we prefer to use the FN MAG (aka M240) for use as a vehicle machine gun due to the way you can change the barrel, as well as its reliability.
@PyrusEnderhunter Your weapons were very advanced. So advanced that having them work half the time was a good thing.
Given the performance of Sentian troops in the Australia and Antarctica campaign compared to the performance of Chinese troops in Nepal, their training does have parity with the Chinese Army.
As for ships, a battleship is already an obsolete design. While useful in niche scenarios, they are very much secondary vessels, serving as floating AA citadels to defend carriers. The lack of naval aviation beyond liaision and spotting roles did hamper your ability to protect battleships from air attack.
In particular, Paternian A-4 Skyhawks and A-6 Intruders on very low-altitude strikes proved deadly against Sentian cruisers. Flying under the radar with toss-bombing tactics with unguided 1,00lb SAP bombs on the A-4s with their computer bombsights and skip-bombing tactics with 454kg HEAT bombs on the A-6s, the A-4s and A-6s were able to avoid the heavy losses taken by other air forces when attacking your ships, who employed standard medium-high altitude strikes.
Also using condensed U shells could qualify as nuclear warfare due to the radioactivity, and locust shells could qualify as entomological warfare, a subtype of biological warfare. Due to the legal grey area of employing uninfected locusts against crops, I would not condone such an activity.
Permission to reskin?
@PyrusEnderhunter Don't treat alliances like personal friendships. Treat them as alliances. They are fluid and dynamic. Your allies now may not be your allies later, although alliances based on mutual benefit than those of convenience are most likely to last longest.
A key is to make yourself as useful as you can be to the ones you want to be friends with. MemeKing sells me oil and raw materials while we sell him F-104 Starfighters and M16 assault rifles.
Your position in Korea would have been disadvantageous in a conflict between China and the ISFOS. Your forces and his forces have parity in equipment, training, and morale, yet he has superior positioning and logistics. @PyrusEnderhunter
Sometimes it's either you leave them behind and they die or you stay with them and you both die.
A good commander knows when to cede ground and when to hold it. @PyrusEnderhunter
@Supercraft888 1960, as of now.
@PyrusEnderhunter Attacks against character do nothing but distract the conversation.
But yes, I am ruthless in achieving my goals. This I do not hide.
Your co-leader would have certainly understood if you withdrew from Korea. I do not seek territories that are difficult to defend. I prefer to sacrifice territory which is difficult to defend than try and hold it and weaken my defensive capabilities further.
@PyrusEnderhunter Also, we are masters at psychological warfare. It's how we can occupy foreign territories like Nepal so effectively. We are able to make them love us. With our army, comes our hospitals, infrastructure, schools, and law enforcement. Usually we leave the local governments in place, removing leaders who oppose us but otherwise leaving the structure intact. In few cases do we dismantle the former bureaucracy and institute our own.
@t8erh8er And now I've gotten around to it.
@PyrusEnderhunter I knew that you didn't like China. Matter of fact, both of you hated each other. But you were also very powerful, and could potentially pose a threat to Paternian influence.
In addition, your refusal to completely abandon Korea, which would certainly defuse tensions and put you in a far more defensible position told me that your abilities as a commander and diplomat are limited.
In contrast, MemeKing, and PINK are much more powerful due to their knowledge of diplomacy and military command. They know how to counter your simplistic rushes and biological weapons. It's stupidly simple.
@PyrusEnderhunter 1) The Paternian Medical Service has no reported casualties from your jamming equipment.
2) You supported China. The Paternian Republic has conflicting interests with China. As his primary source of international support, it was imperative to weaken his influence, which can be accomplished by your destruction. And the NSA was a willing participant.
3) While the majority of operations were not led by Paternians, we provided the necessary logistical, reconnaissance, and technical support for the operations to succeed. Things such as the PRN Albacore (SSN-103) and F-4 Phantom II sorties form New Zealand were small but significant. Your operations to defend and retake Australia would have been far more successful if it wasn't for the small but important contribution by the Paternian Armed Forces. What they could not provide, we did.
4) I have defended your arse many times, you know. When you got absolutely pummeled and driven from the planet in that other season, I was literally the thin red line between you and complete annihilation. Yes, it was a scummy move to get rid of you, but a necessary one from our perspective.
@PyrusEnderhunter You realize that if you are invaded, Paternia and Awwam can provide military assistance.
But if either Paternia or Awwam is invaded, you can't provide much, if any, military assistance. Therefore, someone could lure either Paternia or Awwam into conflict by invading you, knowing that you can't stand up to a full-blown invasion but that by the treaty we will have to help you.
@PyrusEnderhunter I convinced MemeKing that you are a liability in the MDP.
@PyrusEnderhunter Clinton is a good politician.
I like her.
@PyrusEnderhunter You also are no longer part of the MDP.
Ask meme.
@MemeKingIndustriesAndMegaCorporation This revolver was made at around the same time as the M82.
@PyrusEnderhunter Also, I call BS that you have 200 battleships.
That would need 0.5% of your population just to man the capital ships, not accounting for the support forces.
@PyrusEnderhunter That population is quite large, given the world population is 3 billion at this time. The Paternian population is 220 million, and the Chinese population is 700 million, both nations with much greater area than your nation.
So what makes you think you can provide the level of comfort we can provide our 220 million people with only a small fraction of the resources I have while maintaining an oversized military?
@PyrusEnderhunter Also, what is the population of your nation?
@PyrusEnderhunter 1) Gabon and Congo have plenty of rainforests. 2) Most of Congo itself is part of the Congo River Basin, which has large tropical rainforests. 3) I don't consider rainforests "barren wastelands."
I suggest knowing your geography before you attempt anything.
@PyrusEnderhunter But you don't have that, so you claim.
You have weapons beyond the capabilities of the time.
@PyrusEnderhunter I told it to those resources.
"Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in a final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, and the hopes of its children."
We can afford to spend millions of dollars on a military because all those who hunger and ask for food are fed. Those who are cold and ask for clothes are clothed.
You cannot provide that. I want to know how many people live in your African territories.
@PyrusEnderhunter It takes more than oil to maintain a ship, which Congo and Gabon has plenty.
You need the food to feed the thousands of men and women which man and maintain these floating citadels of death. You need large shipyards to service them. You need thousands of tons of steel to maintain a warship of that size.
As of now, you have none at the level necessary to do so. You do have extensive resources in Congo, but I doubt they will be enough to build a navy that can challenge the might of the Paternian Navy.
@PyrusEnderhunter You don't have the resources to invest in weapons.
@PyrusEnderhunter You realize how impractical a sound cannon is, right?
Also, everyone's calling you OP. Your nation is basically the Korean Peninsula, the DR of Congo, and Gabon. You don't have the resources to maintain a hundred capital ships.
Ik. More accessories than a Barbie doll comes with. Don't ask me how I know. @Supercraft888
No. @Supercraft888
He doesn't put bayonets or grenade launchers on his guns.
They interfere with suppressors, flashlights, and foregrips.
I do that because I don't need that stuff. @Supercraft888
Ikr. Those are iron sights on a RAIL. @Supercraft888
So if your sound weapon wanted to knock a plane's electronics out, it would have to knock out the plane. @PyrusEnderhunter
You can't do that. It's impossible.
Sound is a mechanical wave. It relies on particles hitting particles. This is why there is no sound in a vacuum; no particles to bump into each other.
Radio is an electromagnetic wave. It relies on photons, which are particles and waves at the same time.
Therefore, your sonic cannon would have to destroy everything between the weapon and the target. @PyrusEnderhunter
So you shattered the ears of everyone listening to a radio? @PyrusEnderhunter
So you shattered the eardrums of everyone listening to marine and land mobile band radios? @PyrusEnderhunter
It's a pistol-caliber Carbine. Similar to the stuff Hi-Point and Kel-Tec make.
Interesting concept. Reminds me of the De Liese Carbine (.45 ACP suppressed assassination rifle).
We don't just take pictures you know. Radio signals can extend far into the sea. What we cannot see, we can hear. @PyrusEnderhunter