@ThomasRoderick
Answer to the first question, it doesn't. Caliber/diameter does not seem to have any noticeable effect on kinetic damage. 200mm/ids 10 400mm/ids 10
@ThomasRoderick
1) Lemme test... (I suspect it doesn't matter)
2) With some modifications, yes. You gotta space cannon/block pairs far enough apart from other pairs, so they don't destroy stuff or mess with the results.
@rexzion @Farewellntchii @MyReaktorIsLeak @DimitriIqbal91
You were on my "people who may be interested in this finding" list. I am truly sorry.
(Let me know if you aren't, or don't want to get tagged)
@11qazxc @ThomasRoderick @Astro12 @wernster
(Sorry for the repeated tagging,)
I think we have a pretty good idea on how cannon damage works and is calculated (ignoring the velocity drop over time)
Also, I'll be pinning comments that I think has especially useful/new info, but it ruins the order of the comments and will make it hard to follow the discussion later, so I'll probably pick and compile them into a more easily-readable format later. Suggestions or help are welcome.
.
Speaking of which, is there a game mechanics equivalent of SimpleCheats or Snowflakes' Funky Trees Guide? I think it would be nice to have these useful info in a easily readable and accessible format. Right now, as far as I'm aware, these info are scattered all over the site, discord and such, and can be removed by accident or the whim of the creator of the post.
Built a new test gear (for non-explosive ammo). https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/Epj6OF/Damage-test-gear-cannon
This one has 4 cannons, and they automatically stop firing when the respective block is destroyed (they are enabled when green cannons above each block is connected to the cockpit). You can re-enable them and count the rounds fired with AG1.
@ThomasRoderick
Thanks. So that part of the mechanic has nothing to do with explosionScale value, when it's Basic.
@11qazxc
That's a really cool observation, didn't think the value was rerolled with every map restart.
I can't do the testing myself right now, but I wanna see if the game applies the same amount of boost/nerf for 1) all cannons 2) all cannons of the same name 3) all cannons with the same Xml characteristics (so same muzzle velocity and impactDamageScaler), or it's different for each cannon every time.
We can test this by simply copy-pasting the cannon, place them so they each shoot at different block, and take note of how many shots each one requires to destroy the block. (Blocks should all have 1000 HP, and are individually connected to cockpit and only the cockpit--I'm not sure if the HP-pool thing you mentioned will have any effect on the result). Hopefully so we can get more data for average/range of damage a given combo of muzzle velocity + impactDamageScaler will do.
@ThomasRoderick
Kinda going back a few comments (harkening back to Astro's comment), but basic shells do explosion damage even when the explosionScale is set to 0? No obvious explosion visually and damage wise, certainly, but I want to be sure (will do test myself)
I've seen that too, and your hypothesis, theory, whatever's the right word here would make sense.
(It's been bugging me as it happens with my Sinkable Ship when I blow it up with explosives, scatters the light buoyancy blocks all over the place and kinda ruins the immersion/fun)
@Astro12
Yeah, this thread alone has shown me that there are so many mechanic to it that I wasn't aware of. I just gotta hope I can make a decent HP/survivability& damage system for different class of armor/ship types.
@Astro12
I do have some experience where a hit to a part of the tank messing up a rotator and such located elsewhere (tends to "lock" the tator in place, and makes it unable to move it--without destroying the connection)
Can't be sure 100%, but I think all the parts involved has partCollisionResponse of None
I'm interested (information is always a good thing (as long as it's not information about me, lol)), but i don't have much info.
HP of connected parts affects number of shoots needed to destroy "this" part, but i was testing it with miniguns (average of ten attempts to destroy a block) and it was very much random.
.
My concept about connections was "HP pools": similarly to your concept, i was trying to use few blocks with high HP and standard blocks connected to them and them only (see link above).
Wow... this is quite interesting, never figured out (or even noticed) this mechanics.
As for cannon, I think your theory on shape might be correct. I'll see if it loses damage attribute once it hit a block.
@Kendog84 The thing is... from what I've seen from gun tests, say we have a cockpit - wing - wing chain or a cockpit - block - block chain, and the second the end of the chain gets destroyed/blows up (which seems to have its own AOE effect) it would sometimes detonate the surrounding parts until it reaches the cockpit. My personal creations usually have locked rotators (range of motion = 0, speed = floppy) to break up the chain.
Huh... did this happen regardless of partCollisionResponse?--wait, scratch that. I know it happens even when PCR is None for all parts involved. Do you think the physical distance between these parts matter?
@ThomasRoderick
Huh.. thanks, that's good to know.
I was kinda working on the assumption that what I said was the case (without testing, was just guessing).
And yeah, rocket's explosion doesn't seem to change in any way (people/I build & have to build custom rockets to simulate ones with bigger boom for that--explosion scaler for rocket & pod would be really nice)
@ShiroNeko
Sorry for the late reply,
I'm building a larger demonstrator/teat ship (battleship scale) for the concept. I think implementing this will be easy (easier) if you plan the implementation from the start though, like only using parts with modified XML (buoyancy, exterior, etc.).
Anyway, I'll try and see if I can find or come up with more concrete system for each class of ships. Once I've decided how much HP feels like a battleship and such, I want to do a "starter kit (parts collection)" sort of build, at some point
@ThomasRoderick
(You may know this already, but) I believe/think disintegration happens thanks to the attribute of explosion which lets it "destroy/cut" the connections between blocks within the effect radius, as well as the way blocks are connected.
You can build 'tougher' plane by connecting every individual block to the primary cockpit (with partCollisionResponseNone and all that good stuff), since in this case, you must damage each individual part or the cockpit to destroy the whole plane.
Planes we've been building (as a community as a whole) tend to be weak partly because parts are connected to each other, and especially other weak parts, which causes the chain-reaction when hit with explosive weapons (or anything, if partCollisionResponse is default).
(I have added some visual explanations on the topic on my sinking ship damage model (advanced demo))
@ThomasRoderick
Yeah, there isn't much info or research on the topic on the site it seems (I'm really excited & interested in your gun weapons research for that, I do want to have a good and consistent damage/armor system for my airplanes).
It's kinda understandable why this hasn't been researched yet (much), but I think it's (and should be) pretty relevant now, now that we can build ships that sink, and (combined with necessary FT tech like autopilot and autoaim) can soon have actual naval combat--for that to be fun, battleship needs to "feel" like a battleship in relation to smaller type of ships. (And for that we need to have some idea on how cannons work)
I'm pretty hopeful that we can get at least some useful info out of this experiment.
I wanna add that for bomb and missile (for clarity's sake), scale of the visual effect part affects explosion radius. And I think it may also affect the actual damage radius & force, but I need to do some tests.
@NotHome
Not on the version I'm working on (my current version uses F-105), but it is possible! :). Check out MisterT's video https://youtu.be/ZpPW_ikWy8c
@rexzion
Huh... by AI, do you mean the planes you can choose (Escort mission bomber, "Enemy" fighter etc.) or the type of AI behavior? (Hostile, neutral, etc.)
But regardless, I guess some kind of workaround for that is needed for both platforms then.
(To prevent the enemy/friendly from attacking each other) I'm thinking some kind of passive-aggro mechanism (you spawn friendly as neutral and make them react to hostile fighters when locked on, or something like that), as well as exploiting "critically damaged" state might help with that (I'm using this for my AA tanks and SAM sites already--can be used for interceptors too, assuming you are going to shoot them down). Bit off topic.
Would be great if we could assign AIs to teams though.
.
.
Edit: Oh wait- NVM, you did say AI mode, missed a word somehow
@ThomasRoderick
No problem, and thanks for the clarification.
I got a little confused, as I didn't realize that you/game basically shares a single predictor for both cannons and guns in air-to-air mode, but now your explanation of the testing results make more sense. Quite an interesting finding.
@rexzion
Mmm. I'm hoping this gives mobile players (including myself) the ability to create an instant custom mission.
Aren't you able to create custom missions on PC without these FT controlled vehicles, though? I just kinda guessed that you could easily program AI pathing and such on PC, and make missions like Bomber Escort
@Chaffed
Thanks, and I might do that (cargo jet alone) later. You can save the plane by itself by first removing the cockpit part from the M103 tank (it's hidden inside the hull I think), and then disconnecting the tank & APCs from the detacher.
.
If you want to use the plane with other vehicles, save the plane as a sub-assembly, and simply add it to the vehicle you want to use it with.
Just make sure you have the plane and vehicle connected via detacher, though, otherwise only the vehicle with primary cockpit will be able to move.
@Thatguy2020
It was easier to edit the vehicles that way, why they're outside the plane.
As for tanks, you have to first press corresponding activation groups to activate each vehicle, Number 2 for the tank, Number 5 & 6 for the APCs. Check out the instructions for rest of the instructions (you can open that in designer or in-flight, from option menu).
Also, detacher won't get in the way so don't worry about it, it doesn't have collision.
@ThomasRoderick
Don't mention it, this is cool and useful.
I wanna ask a question for clarification though, by "highest" are you referring to the highest muzzle velocity weapon, highest in the list, or highest in terms of placement? I'm assuming it's the first one, but just to be sure.
@DatRoadTrainGuy19
Thanks😂
And... no, he's not Tenpenny, but I did base the uniform on LSPD/LAPD color scheme.
Now that you mentioned it, I do want to make/see CRASH version of the figs. (I'm not making them (not anytime soon at least), you should give it a try if you wanna)
Beautiful plane, pleasant & fun to fly. Also, the reflection of the fuselage looks just... right. (Might be a common knowledge, but the reflection setting really did impress me--and turns out it's simply a 100% smoothness giving it the beautiful look! haha (never thought of that))
@Farewellntchii
Glad you liked it. Do let me know if you have ideas for improvement (shoulder joints may need to be moved inward or outward for more natural arm movement in X axis)
This is so cool!
If, perhaps, combined with coords based self driving mechanism (11qazxc's gift truck for instance) so the truck drives itself closer to a target (you can aggro the thing by locking onto the truck with missile, so it "targets" you--which lets the truck have your coords via FT variables), you might be able to automate the process a bit more. That may/will create some limitations in terms of what kind of planes can be refueled, though.
@OrderlyHippo
Check this out!
@ThomasRoderick
Answer to the first question, it doesn't. Caliber/diameter does not seem to have any noticeable effect on kinetic damage.
200mm/ids 10
400mm/ids 10
You can use these to see for yourself
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/1TV8yw/Cannon-damage-tester-Mk3-5-200mm
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/03mS0f/Cannon-damage-tester-Mk3-5-400mm
I'm guessing it might be the muzzle velocity equivalent of explosion damage, though that's a blind guess
+1@ThomasRoderick
+11) Lemme test... (I suspect it doesn't matter)
2) With some modifications, yes. You gotta space cannon/block pairs far enough apart from other pairs, so they don't destroy stuff or mess with the results.
@rexzion @Farewellntchii @MyReaktorIsLeak @DimitriIqbal91
+1You were on my "people who may be interested in this finding" list. I am truly sorry.
(Let me know if you aren't, or don't want to get tagged)
@11qazxc @ThomasRoderick @Astro12 @wernster
+2(Sorry for the repeated tagging,)
I think we have a pretty good idea on how cannon damage works and is calculated (ignoring the velocity drop over time)
Such a beautiful boat.
Suggestions/feedbacks are welcome!
@11qazxc @ThomasRoderick @Astro12
+2New damage tester
@Susyamngsu
I see. Can you try this one? Removed one APC
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/kk7N7l/Working-cargo-plane-w-tanks-byKendog84-WIP
Looks nice and build is efficient! Love it!
+1Also, I'll be pinning comments that I think has especially useful/new info, but it ruins the order of the comments and will make it hard to follow the discussion later, so I'll probably pick and compile them into a more easily-readable format later. Suggestions or help are welcome.
+2.
Speaking of which, is there a game mechanics equivalent of SimpleCheats or Snowflakes' Funky Trees Guide? I think it would be nice to have these useful info in a easily readable and accessible format. Right now, as far as I'm aware, these info are scattered all over the site, discord and such, and can be removed by accident or the whim of the creator of the post.
Built a new test gear (for non-explosive ammo).
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/Epj6OF/Damage-test-gear-cannon
This one has 4 cannons, and they automatically stop firing when the respective block is destroyed (they are enabled when green cannons above each block is connected to the cockpit). You can re-enable them and count the rounds fired with AG1.
@11qazxc @ThomasRoderick
+2@ThomasRoderick
Thanks. So that part of the mechanic has nothing to do with explosionScale value, when it's Basic.
@11qazxc
That's a really cool observation, didn't think the value was rerolled with every map restart.
I can't do the testing myself right now, but I wanna see if the game applies the same amount of boost/nerf for 1) all cannons 2) all cannons of the same name 3) all cannons with the same Xml characteristics (so same muzzle velocity and impactDamageScaler), or it's different for each cannon every time.
We can test this by simply copy-pasting the cannon, place them so they each shoot at different block, and take note of how many shots each one requires to destroy the block. (Blocks should all have 1000 HP, and are individually connected to cockpit and only the cockpit--I'm not sure if the HP-pool thing you mentioned will have any effect on the result). Hopefully so we can get more data for average/range of damage a given combo of muzzle velocity + impactDamageScaler will do.
+1@ThomasRoderick
Kinda going back a few comments (harkening back to Astro's comment), but basic shells do explosion damage even when the explosionScale is set to 0? No obvious explosion visually and damage wise, certainly, but I want to be sure (will do test myself)
@ThomasRoderick
I've seen that too, and your hypothesis, theory, whatever's the right word here would make sense.
(It's been bugging me as it happens with my Sinkable Ship when I blow it up with explosives, scatters the light buoyancy blocks all over the place and kinda ruins the immersion/fun)
@Astro12
+2Yeah, this thread alone has shown me that there are so many mechanic to it that I wasn't aware of. I just gotta hope I can make a decent HP/survivability& damage system for different class of armor/ship types.
@Astro12
I do have some experience where a hit to a part of the tank messing up a rotator and such located elsewhere (tends to "lock" the tator in place, and makes it unable to move it--without destroying the connection)
Can't be sure 100%, but I think all the parts involved has partCollisionResponse of None
@11qazxc
Wow... this is quite interesting, never figured out (or even noticed) this mechanics.
As for cannon, I think your theory on shape might be correct. I'll see if it loses damage attribute once it hit a block.
@ThomasRoderick
Huh... did this happen regardless of partCollisionResponse?--wait, scratch that. I know it happens even when PCR is None for all parts involved. Do you think the physical distance between these parts matter?
@ThomasRoderick
+1Thanks, lemme try these examples
@ShiroNeko
Sure, that would be great (accidentally parroted your words, damn lol). Lemme find you...
Oh in the mean time, check this out. I think there is an will be sine interesting discussion there
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/VuZ4Pf/Damage-mechanics-test-4-explosionScale-impactDamageScaler-explosionScale-muzzl
@ThomasRoderick
+2Huh.. thanks, that's good to know.
I was kinda working on the assumption that what I said was the case (without testing, was just guessing).
And yeah, rocket's explosion doesn't seem to change in any way (people/I build & have to build custom rockets to simulate ones with bigger boom for that--explosion scaler for rocket & pod would be really nice)
@Madmaximus
Thank you! Do let me know if you have any feedback or suggestions, or cool ideas, I can probably use them:)
@ShiroNeko
Sorry for the late reply,
I'm building a larger demonstrator/teat ship (battleship scale) for the concept. I think implementing this will be easy (easier) if you plan the implementation from the start though, like only using parts with modified XML (buoyancy, exterior, etc.).
Anyway, I'll try and see if I can find or come up with more concrete system for each class of ships. Once I've decided how much HP feels like a battleship and such, I want to do a "starter kit (parts collection)" sort of build, at some point
@ThomasRoderick
+1(You may know this already, but) I believe/think disintegration happens thanks to the attribute of explosion which lets it "destroy/cut" the connections between blocks within the effect radius, as well as the way blocks are connected.
You can build 'tougher' plane by connecting every individual block to the primary cockpit (with
partCollisionResponseNoneand all that good stuff), since in this case, you must damage each individual part or the cockpit to destroy the whole plane.Planes we've been building (as a community as a whole) tend to be weak partly because parts are connected to each other, and especially other weak parts, which causes the chain-reaction when hit with explosive weapons (or anything, if partCollisionResponse is default).
(I have added some visual explanations on the topic on my sinking ship damage model (advanced demo))
@ThomasRoderick
Yeah, there isn't much info or research on the topic on the site it seems (I'm really excited & interested in your gun weapons research for that, I do want to have a good and consistent damage/armor system for my airplanes).
It's kinda understandable why this hasn't been researched yet (much), but I think it's (and should be) pretty relevant now, now that we can build ships that sink, and (combined with necessary FT tech like autopilot and autoaim) can soon have actual naval combat--for that to be fun, battleship needs to "feel" like a battleship in relation to smaller type of ships. (And for that we need to have some idea on how cannons work)
I'm pretty hopeful that we can get at least some useful info out of this experiment.
+1I wanna add that for bomb and missile (for clarity's sake), scale of the visual effect part affects explosion radius. And I think it may also affect the actual damage radius & force, but I need to do some tests.
+1@Nofferston @rexzion @11qazxc @winterro
+1You guys might be interested
@ThomasRoderick
Doing cannon experimentation--got any suggestions, or relevant informations?
Really cool concept
+1@NotHome
+1Not on the version I'm working on (my current version uses F-105), but it is possible! :). Check out MisterT's video https://youtu.be/ZpPW_ikWy8c
@Susyamngsu
Hm.. is the file too large?
@Farewellntchii
Oh yeah, haven't tried that actually. I'll see how it looks with it, thanks
@rexzion
Huh... by AI, do you mean the planes you can choose (Escort mission bomber, "Enemy" fighter etc.) or the type of AI behavior? (Hostile, neutral, etc.)
But regardless, I guess some kind of workaround for that is needed for both platforms then.
(To prevent the enemy/friendly from attacking each other) I'm thinking some kind of passive-aggro mechanism (you spawn friendly as neutral and make them react to hostile fighters when locked on, or something like that), as well as exploiting "critically damaged" state might help with that (I'm using this for my AA tanks and SAM sites already--can be used for interceptors too, assuming you are going to shoot them down). Bit off topic.
Would be great if we could assign AIs to teams though.
.
.
Edit: Oh wait- NVM, you did say AI mode, missed a word somehow
@ThomasRoderick
+1No problem, and thanks for the clarification.
I got a little confused, as I didn't realize that you/game basically shares a single predictor for both cannons and guns in air-to-air mode, but now your explanation of the testing results make more sense. Quite an interesting finding.
@rexzion
Mmm. I'm hoping this gives mobile players (including myself) the ability to create an instant custom mission.
Aren't you able to create custom missions on PC without these FT controlled vehicles, though? I just kinda guessed that you could easily program AI pathing and such on PC, and make missions like Bomber Escort
@Chaffed
Thanks, and I might do that (cargo jet alone) later. You can save the plane by itself by first removing the cockpit part from the M103 tank (it's hidden inside the hull I think), and then disconnecting the tank & APCs from the detacher.
.
If you want to use the plane with other vehicles, save the plane as a sub-assembly, and simply add it to the vehicle you want to use it with.
Just make sure you have the plane and vehicle connected via detacher, though, otherwise only the vehicle with primary cockpit will be able to move.
@Thatguy2020
+1It was easier to edit the vehicles that way, why they're outside the plane.
As for tanks, you have to first press corresponding activation groups to activate each vehicle, Number 2 for the tank, Number 5 & 6 for the APCs. Check out the instructions for rest of the instructions (you can open that in designer or in-flight, from option menu).
Also, detacher won't get in the way so don't worry about it, it doesn't have collision.
@ThomasRoderick
Don't mention it, this is cool and useful.
I wanna ask a question for clarification though, by "highest" are you referring to the highest muzzle velocity weapon, highest in the list, or highest in terms of placement? I'm assuming it's the first one, but just to be sure.
+1@DatRoadTrainGuy19
Thanks😂
And... no, he's not Tenpenny, but I did base the uniform on LSPD/LAPD color scheme.
Now that you mentioned it, I do want to make/see CRASH version of the figs. (I'm not making them (not anytime soon at least), you should give it a try if you wanna)
+1Beautiful plane, pleasant & fun to fly. Also, the reflection of the fuselage looks just... right. (Might be a common knowledge, but the reflection setting really did impress me--and turns out it's simply a 100% smoothness giving it the beautiful look! haha (never thought of that))
+1Uploaded the thing! (Slightky different/not quite finished yet)
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/y5aT80/Working-cargo-plane-w-tanks-WIP-unfinished-Mighty-Hauler-STOL-airlifter-w-M
@Hasanali
(DeepL)
I didn't include more than one tank, but you can add another tank by
1)copying the tank, and
2)connecting them via winch
You can use this winch
https://www.simpleplanes.com/a/VS3Hi1/Tank-connector-winch-Dont-delete
@2100
(DeepL)
Thank you! (谢谢!)
@Farewellntchii
Glad you liked it. Do let me know if you have ideas for improvement (shoulder joints may need to be moved inward or outward for more natural arm movement in X axis)
@LotusCarsClub
@KangIntel
@DatRoadTrainGuy19
@FirstFish83828
Published the figs, including the cops!
@Farewellntchii
Fast... thanks in response!
@MisterT
Damn, I knew of all the techs needed to do that, but somehow couldn't connect the dots, thanks for the tip. Looked really cool in the video!
This is so cool!
+1If, perhaps, combined with coords based self driving mechanism (11qazxc's gift truck for instance) so the truck drives itself closer to a target (you can aggro the thing by locking onto the truck with missile, so it "targets" you--which lets the truck have your coords via FT variables), you might be able to automate the process a bit more. That may/will create some limitations in terms of what kind of planes can be refueled, though.
@OrderlyHippo
Check this out!
@klm747klm747
That's great, excited to try it!
@khaitus
Nice, and thanks! Has a tendency to roll and fall (haha), but fun to drive nonetheless
@TalonPotato
Thanks!