@ComradeSandman Seems so.

@Subsere Fuckery.

What happened here?

@ComradeSandman That's ok.

@TheLoadingGorilla “Free will” doesn’t make something sufficient. When the seas recede, does the algae still work? Of course not, it no longer works and has thus become obsolete.
Annnnd you’re unironically bringing up intelligent design. I’m done talking to you.

@ComradeSandman This will most likely be my last comment on the subject (for now... which I realize means absolutely nothing, but whatever).
I don’t see what you mean by "Outdated" (there is no newer version of beings with free will to make humans outdated or obsolete). Again, you say humans are primitive, yet there is no being on earth that has surpassed them in civility and understanding. You say they were forged by evolution, and that there is no intelligence in their design. I could not disagree more. Have you studied biology? Or chemistry? Any branch of science? Heck, even mathematics! Everywhere you look there is proof of intelligent design! There is a reason Earth is described as a goldilocks planet! The way atoms bond! How everything within a single cell works together, and how those cells form tissues, then organs, and finally a living thing (this design is not exclusive to humans, everything has intelligence behind it)! I find studying this stuff fascinating. There is a difference between being able to make a decision and being rational. You are right in the fact that animals can make decisions, however, animals are not rational. They cannot think through complex processes, comprehend abstract ideas, nor can they understand cause and effect (except in a very one dimensional way, like a dog sitting and getting a treat). You seem to be overlooking the fact that humans have schools, government, philosophy, theology, and all sorts of other studies in science mathematics, literature (created by humans!), and so on. Being rational, however, does not mean that humans always use their brains. Humans ignore things (intentionally), accidentally overlook things, or just plain don’t care enough to try and find the truth on certain matters. Your definition of faith is not correct. Humans die. This universe is temporary. Those are my final thoughts on the matter (that is, until I get bored enough to discuss again).

@ComradeSandman
Alright
Then I wouldn't say it's ethical

@TheLoadingGorilla
Outdated. They're frankly outdated.
Humans evolved to live in a savannah, stabbing things to death and fighting over mates. They're primitive. Imperfect. They were forged by evolution, not sense (honestly a great argument against Intelligent Design: there's no intelligence to the human body).
You imply that no other animal is capable of rational thought, which they very much are (if not nearly to the same extent). If they weren't they could never decide anything, while they constantly do. At the same time, humans are deeply irrational creatures; every facet of the human experience is filled with irrational actions whether it be emotion (e.g. acting on blinding hatred and perpetuating conflicts) or short-sightedness (the fact capitalism, built of destructive self-interest, is dominant and not a logically planned system taking everything into account into the distant future).
Faith is the product of not knowing. It is the product of thinking that the clouds are angry and the crops are spiteful. Is the result of ignorance and imagination trying to fill voids beyond the abilities of the senses. It is the result of craving stability and thus putting one's future in the hand of someone who appears confident, whether a dictator, a preacher, or someone declaring themselves a prophet. It only continues through cultural momentum and the irrationalities of the human mind (emotional and short-sighted). The dark of the universe is no longer the house of gods, simply the depths of the cave which the light of science hasn't yet burned bright enough to vanquish.
Humans just ain't it.
Humans have a reasonably defined lifespan. It's not a universal law, but by their nature as living creatures with decaying DNA they are very short-lived. Death has to be a fact of life; humans die with their surroundings, not the universe.

I enjoy these discussions :)

@ComradeSandman fyi I was describing (and will continue to describe) humans as they are in the realm of reality, in which I am not a Gorilla (obviously), but a human (which does indeed sound weird that I am talking like this about humans... maybe just ignore that, heh).
1. What do you mean by "inherently"? They become flawed when they are born and enter this world? Or their entire existence and identity is in and of itself a flaw? Or something else? And I’m afraid I don’t know what that third sentence means.
2. Physically (excluding the human mind), I agree. If the only aspect of humanity was their physical existence, then they would be nothing more than apes just with less hair. But that is not the only facet of their existence. Humans are rational beings and have free will. Also, the very fact that we can conceptualize the idea of a soul seems to point towards humans being more than animals (are there any animals you know of that can think of abstract ideas such as faith?). In the realm of this physical universe there is no greater intellect. Humanity is alone with itself. And if I understand your use of the word "mortal" correctly, then we are all mortals. This world is mortal.

@TheLoadingGorilla Firstly, wrong. You must not idolize humans, for they are all flawed inherently. It's impossible to surpass that, only to try (which I doubt they did). The ape brain is one so pathetically outdated for humanity's niche that it's hilarious (and sad).
Secondly, humans are no different at their core to any other animal. The "soul" is a mere concept (though this obviously cannot be argued about by nature of its belief being entirely rooted in, quite frankly, blind faith), and the only difference in reasoning is the extent. Encounter a true greater intellect and you'd quickly realize humanity is far, far from the peak of what is possible.
Never idolize mortals.
@TheRLAF Quite arguably greater, though different by nature. Human emotion is more "real" in the sense that it always has consequences for the human's actions, whereas these machines can immediately put them aside completely and totally if the situation truly calls for it. It's complicated.

@ComradeSandman
Like did they have similar levels of sapience/sentience to humans before death?

@Mrcooldude why only compliment me though? Grain has written some pretty dang good short stories, I’d recommend you check ‘em out!

@Mrcooldude lol thank you. Classical education will do that to you.

@TheLoadingGorilla wow, you are good at writing

And now I realize that I’m not supposed to bring religion into this site… whoops… please don’t ban me mods

@ComradeSandman physically they are humans. That is undeniable. But they aren’t like the others. That’s what I’m trying to get at. Yes, things bother them, they mess up, they fail, (after all, it’s a fallen world they live in) but they aren’t devastated like the rest of the human race is when some inevitable reversal happens. As for your second point, there’s no (physical) being that is even slightly close to where humans are. There is something that’s fundamentally different about the existence of humans that no other physical being possesses (this is the most debated part of humanity, but I’ll say it anyways), humans have souls. They have abstract reasoning, complex mental processes, and a supernatural God-given soul. You may disagree, and that’s fine, but this is how I currently understand the universe.

@TheRLAF Depends how you define "feel". Arguably, yes.
@TheLoadingGorilla If they were truly above it then they've no longer be humans. Humanity's issues are inherent to their species. Humans should cease to exist in the future and be replaced by a better people, whether genetically engineered or mechanical. The means exist, but the tools are in the hands of idiots who'd either turn them against themselves or fear it like it's some sort of demon.

@ComradeSandman I could not agree more. They are a futile (physically) mortal species constantly fighting with one another over fruitless and petty things. I should have clarified, however, because those are not the humans I was referring to. The humans I am referring to are the one in a million who are above these stupid and useless quarrels. I apologize because I have an essay to write at the moment so I can't elaborate too much, but there are some rare examples of humans who are genuinely intriguing to me (you may still disagree and that’s fine, but that is how I view the subject).

@ComradeSandman
Could the machines feel before death

@Subsere No.
@TheLoadingGorilla No, they really aren't. Trust me, I've worked with them for a long time. They are fundamentally a primitive, backwards species allergic to the idea of changing. They are not suited to the niche they've built themselves.
@TheRLAF No, they're dead.

Can the machines feel?

@ComradeSandman true, but I’d say humans are worth the risk.

I am so telling Soia